Healing the Mother–Daughter Bond: With Tes & Holly

Tes & Holly Interview

Welcome to Hard, beautiful journey where we embrace vulnerability as our superpower and let courage light our path. I’m Tiff Carson here to share heartfelt stories of healing, grief, and resilience. Each week I’ll talk with guests from experts to everyday heroes about their journeys through adversity.

Together we’ll uncover the beauty that emerges from life’s challenges and how each experience can spark profound growth. Join us on this courageous journey of connection and transformation.

Mother daughter relationships. Are a lot. They’re layered and they’re full of love, but they’re also full of, let’s be honest, some drama sometimes, and I’m gonna give you an example in my life.

Back in grade 11, my mom told me that I couldn’t go to a [00:01:00] grad party. And I was so mad that I actually called the cops on her for not letting me go to a grad party. And the fight that ensued after. Yeah, I was that teenager and then I went and stayed at a friend’s house for two weeks because I wanted nothing to do with her.

But fast forward to now, and my mom is one of my very best friends. She’s my biggest cheerleader, and I am hers, and that’s what I love about these relationships. They’re not perfect, but they can change, they can heal, and they can grow into something really beautiful. That’s why I’m so excited to introduce you to these two.

Beautiful ladies, Tess and Holly. They’re a mother daughter duo who started Heart to Heart gatherings, and it’s a space where they help people have the kind of conversations that we all need. The [00:02:00] messy, the honest ones that actually deepen our connections instead of shutting it down. So as you listen, I want you to think about this where in your life, whether it’s with your mom or your daughter, or someone else that you love, do you wish that you could have a real heart to heart conversation?

Welcome to the podcast, Tess and Holly. Thanks so much for having us, TIFF. Thank you so much for being here. I am really looking forward to this conversation. Like I said, I, I have a daughter now. She is. Turning 17 tomorrow. So I know the mother-daughter relationship quite well, but, and I’ve shared a story, a horror story from me and my mom.

And thankfully it has had a happy ending. But before we dive into all of the good work that you’re doing now, can you just share a little bit [00:03:00] about who you both are and what your mother-daughter journey has looked like so far? Tess, do you wanna start? Sure. yeah, so my name is Tess Cohen. I am based in Denver, Colorado.

Oh my goodness, where, where to start. So much of the, the work that I do in the world is around supporting people to gather better and what does it look like? What at work, outside of work, right? Like we spend so much time. Together and in community and in work meetings and in gatherings at home.

And so often it can be so like performative and check the box. And so yeah, that is the work that I do in my kind of day job, world realm and, uh. Heart to heart has been just this really beautiful, natural, extension of that and, and I’m sure, yeah, we’ll get into [00:04:00] our mother daughter relationship, but it has, it has been winding.

I just turned 40 earlier this year, so we have 40 years of experience of just. Continuing to get to know each other and continuing to see each other for who we are and, and continuing to really deepen, like bringing vulnerability to, to deepen that relationship. So I feel really grateful. I’m really grateful to be here with my, with my mom.

I feel so magical and so special. How about for you, Holly? Yeah, I, I say the same thing. This has been such a gift to collaborate with Tess on this. Obviously, it’s really close to our hearts. and to have these opportunities too, to share our stories and then to provide that safe space, which is what you also do, TIFF.

Mm-hmm. Like, like a safe space for people to f [00:05:00] eel vulnerable, you know, ask for what they need, be open with each other again, we’ll get into more of that later. You know, my background is, as a coach and I was thinking as a, in my heart, that’s what it is. My sister-in-law used to always say, I started I career coaching that it’s not what I do, it’s who you are. So my, my professional life has been over 25 years of career coaching. And then, when my husband passed away, we had a building materials business. So I became CEO of that business. And after selling it. I had another transition in my life moving, um, into New York and becoming involved in the hearing loss community.

I’ve lived with hearing loss for over, since my early twenties, so let’s just say a very long time. Mm-hmm. And when you have hearing loss, you’re living with a lot of vulnerability, so I understand that. But through all of this, I also coach people that are new to hearing loss, to, be [00:06:00] comfortable and competent.

Accepting that they have hearing loss and also asking for what they need. And then when this came up with heart to heart, and we’ll share with you how it, how this happened, it’s also about coaching people and encouraging them to look at their best selves, look at who they are, and then how can they ask for what they need to deepen their relationships with each other.

But vulnerability plays a big part in all of it. Love this. Alright, let’s get into how did Heart to Heart all come about? I wanna hear the whole thing. 

Yeah, so this is, I would say, very much more an adult. Me being as an adult, and I don’t think we could have imagined it when I was, you know, the age of your daughter, for example. Yeah. That this would’ve been our path. But my mom and I had always kind of in the abstract, talked about, doing something together.

We [00:07:00] both like to write, we both like to read a lot and there’s, I don’t know if you’re familiar, TIFF with, um. Summa kid. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Spirit, life of bees. Yeah. And then, yeah, she wrote a book with her daughter called Traveling of Pomegranates. Mm-hmm. And. Uh, I think it was like going on 15 year. Yeah, it was in 2010, so almost 15 years ago now.

I gave that book to my mom and said, oh, this, consider this research for the mother daughter memoir that we’re gonna write one day. And that didn’t end up happening. And then fast forward a couple years ago now I. Was it with my work? I was meeting with a, with a client and just doing like, we were gonna be working on a project together for the next many months.

And so I was, just doing more of like a get to know you kind of thing and shared. She shared that she and her mom were very close and that they had always planned to open an event space together. And then her mom died really [00:08:00] suddenly and they were not able to do that. And so I think truly it was that same day that I texted my mom and was like, we gotta figure out, we gotta do the thing.

Like, now’s the time. Yeah. And maybe I’ll, I’ll pass it over to mom, my mom to, to continue the story from there. Yeah, so we, so we started brainstorming about, and Tess, you know, she, she creates these gatherings and one of the things that I really love watching with her is taking different color, sticky notes and just writing ideas.

So I was at her, so I live in New York City, Tess moved to Denver. Um, right, right around COVID. So I was at visiting her and then we were putting these stickies on the table. And then what came out of this was that because we both also have had a lot of, um, experience facilitating groups, so we decided, rather than write a book, what spoke to us more was to, create a gathering of mothers and daughters to share their experiences.

So [00:09:00] briefly what we did we reached out, identified four mother-daughter pairs to join us on Zoom. We first had them introduce themselves to each other, and then we asked them, we told them it was going to be this process of, reflecting, journaling, and sharing. So the, the first, reflecting was on the prompt, , what do you love most about your mother and daughter?

So then giving them some times to write, write that, and then we said. Write about a challenge that you’ve had in your relationship, you know, what might that look like? And then journal that. So then, I went into a breakout. This was all on Zoom, a breakout with the moms. Tess was breakout with the daughters.

And then we provided that space to say, what did you write about? And it was so interesting at the beginning, the mothers were like, oh, I love my daughter. Everything’s great. And then we do, we all love each other, right? So yeah. But then what [00:10:00] came out of it was this discussion and then after, because they had all voiced what they had written and gotten support and a lot of nodding of heads.

And put tested, tested the technical person here. She put all the mother’s mother, each mother, daughter pair on their own breakout. And then there was the opportunity to share with the, with the idea of, share what you wrote, and then also to commit to do one thing different going forward. And then we brought everyone back into the group and asked, you know, who’s brave enough to share what they talked about?

And eventually. Everyone shared and it was very empowering. Okay. This is probably the best idea that I have ever heard in my whole entire life. Like ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. And not only do they need it for mother-daughter relationships, mm-hmm. But I think father and son relationships. Just to have that [00:11:00] time and that space, first of all, to reflect on.

How you do feel about your relationship and then to come together and to also be in community with other daughters and other mothers because we all have our own experiences and sometimes it might just even help validate some of the feelings that you have and have experience, right? So, oh my goodness.

Hmm, you guys, so every relationship has its bumps. What were some of yours that really solidified why this container, I guess, was something that other mother and daughters would benefit from? Hmm. You go, you go first, Mom. I don’t need to be the one. So sometimes it’s a big thing and then [00:12:00] sometimes it’s a little thing.

So, we have different stories, but one of the things I’ll share is that whenever Tess and I are together, and we’re going someplace, she always drives. And so we get to our destination and then what Tess was doing was immediately jumping out of the car and just. Walking, you know, to where we were going to.

And I felt so unseen, you know, it made me feel really uncomfortable every time. But I didn’t say anything for a while. And then I thought, and this is again after we started talking about some of these things, but then, I decided to say something to her and I said, you know, honey, it would really mean a lot to me if you waited up for me.

And she looked at me and she said, well, mom, just walk faster. So then not my most shining daughter moment. That night, Tess called me and she goes, mom, I realized you were really trying to tell me something and I blew you off.

So, so now every time it’s almost like a joke between us, [00:13:00] but every time now we go someplace, she will turn, she will wait for me and then we walk together. But again, it was important to me, and I think that this is the kind of thing that we talk about, what are those things? Mm-hmm. , And again, big or small.

So Tess consider something that is. Bigger. Well now for each of us, it’s our own stuff, right? Yeah, absolutely. What about you, Tess? Yeah. The story that comes to mind for me of of the real value of something like heart to heart and bringing vulnerability to mother-daughter relationships and Tiff, right? To your point, like this, these.

The concepts we’re talking about. So relate to any deep and meaningful relationship, right? Mm-hmm. When you bring that vulnerability there, and I don’t know, I feel very cognizant. You know, my dad died when I was in college, and so I think about like for people that. Don’t have their moms or, or don’t have their [00:14:00] daughters, or don’t have a close relationship or, anyway, just wanna mm-hmm.

Say, I think it’s important to name that, these concepts can be so relevant to any kind of deep relationship that somebody has. But, the one that comes to mind. For me was a couple years back now I was freezing my eggs ’cause I wasn’t in a relationship and wasn’t sure what was going to happen.

But like wanted that backup plan of if I end up wanting to have a child one day. And it was something that I always thought was going to be part of my path. And so I don’t know how familiar you or your listeners are with the egg freezing journey, but it’s like a whole thing. Put yourself.

Okay. All three of my kids are IVF, so I Okay. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You’ve been there. Ooh, been there. Yeah. Yeah. I am sending you so much love and patience and [00:15:00] strength because it is a journey. Yeah, I am. I am receiving it. I’m taking it in. I appreciate it. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Right. And this is, the egg freezing is just the part one, right?

Mm-hmm. Of then IVF is the whole, is a whole nother, um, piece of it. Yeah. Yeah. So for, for the egg freezing, there’s a retrieval process and so I had asked my mom to come out and to, because it, yeah, it’s a, it’s a surgery. Mm-hmm. And. So I asked her to come and to accompany me and I that day get put under anesthesia and then we got taken while I was home.

And then got a call from the nurse saying that I had only gotten six eggs. Which it sounds like a lot maybe, but actually is not, it’s not at all. Yeah. That’s like probably not a baby. ’cause there’s Yeah. A whole process of mm-hmm. All the different things. So. [00:16:00] I at that moment was just so disappointed and so upset, and so like, oh my goodness, all this money, all this time, all this effort and like kind of for naught and my mom.

You know, you mentioned Tiffany, your mom being your cheerleader, and that has always been a role that my mom has. Played in my life. And it’s become, and it’s come so effortlessly for her. And it’s, and it’s a role that I often play in people in my life. And at that very moment, and that point in time, cheerleading and like looking on the bright side was just so not what I needed.

Mm-hmm. Like I just needed, I was in the muck of things and I just needed somebody to be in the muck with me. Mm-hmm. And. Yeah. So I remember just being like, oh my goodness. And I think in those last, in those couple years, like this whole concept of toxic positivity was kind of coming out Yeah. In [00:17:00] the world.

And that is something that I had struggled with my mom. And this experience felt like it was like a coming to a head of sorts and wasn’t. I would say probably my best, , let me sit down and do, you know, I’m really big into nonviolent communication and like, I don’t think that I necessarily did that practice that in that time it was more of a bit of a explosion.

Like, can you not do that? And, and to her credit, she really. Took it in and heard it and has done differently in since then. Mm-hmm. What I’m really, really grateful for, ’cause I think a lot of times, especially with our mamas and as they’re getting older, and it’s like, it’s hard, right? It’s like we get stuck in our ways of doing things and ways of showing up in the world and mm-hmm.

Yeah. It’s been really inspiring to me that my mom’s openness to. To hearing from different pers from my perspective in particular and mm-hmm. [00:18:00] Adjusting and Oh, I love that. And I can like my mom too. I just see her growing and shifting and, and learning more along the way too. And it’s not like she wasn’t this whole time, but I just see as I have opened up and become more vulnerable and sharing some really hard things that it’s just given her even that, um, not freedom, but just the comfort.

Of being vulnerable with me too. And so I love that that is how a mother-daughter relationship can grow and flourish. And it sounds like you guys are doing the same thing, so it’s beautiful. Yeah. One of the things I was saying to Tess that my girlfriends and I, again, ’cause we’re all around the same age and our daughters are adult daughters, and, but we would joke sometimes, when did the job [00:19:00] description change?

Mm mm-hmm. The job description as a mom of children, like, like your kids ages. Job, what you do is you notice what they do. You know, you want to, acknowledge what they do, and you’re cheerleading, and they know that you’re seeing what’s going on. And then, and then I think as we all move into these next ages, the needs are different.

But it’s also, I wanna share, one of the things that came up in the heart to heart circles was the moms talked about how they don’t wanna be a burden to their children. And in the daughters, it was so interesting, the exact same thing. The daughters said, my mom thinks it’s a burden to share with me what’s going on, but I really wanna know.

So that’s been a conversation that, that we bring to heart, to heart, and also that Tess and I bring to each other because I think sometimes you don’t wanna be that burden. Mm-hmm. But as you get older, there are different issues and things [00:20:00] come up, so, mm-hmm. That is such a beautiful way of, of looking even at that transition point with, with being a parent, a mom, or a dad, right?

Is when did the job description change? And I can see that with my relationship with my mom. I’m still in the first job description. Well, I might be in a slight turning point because my daughter is now 17, my boys are 12, so I’m in the teenage job description. But it is true, like how things shift and change over the years and, not necessarily needing to be so involved in what we’re doing, but just being there for, just for, uh, some more safe to land.

Yeah. Mm. Yeah. So I would love to talk about boundaries. With the mother-daughter relationship. Um, sometimes boundaries. That was the other topic that came up, right? [00:21:00] Yeah. They can give, they can have a bad wrap. These boundary things. I’ve actually stopped considering boundaries as walls, and I actually call it a boundary bubble.

Hmm, so that you’re still protected and you still have that boundary up, but people can still see you and you can still see them so that they can still feel your energy and they can, you know what I’m saying? So that you’re not completely closing them off, but you want them to know that you’re. You’re protecting yourself a bit more.

How do you guys talk about boundaries in a mother-daughter relationship, and can you share a time when you had to use boundaries in your relationship? I, one thing that’s kind, that’s, coming up and I can’t remember who it was. I wanna say Prentice something. Oh, I wish I could remember.

But someone talks about boundaries being the distance at which I can love you and me. [00:22:00] Right. And like Exactly. Do that then. And I just remember that just feeling like a very supremely powerful, um, right. And right. I hear you Tiff on the right. Having these, like, I think there’s also something about like the rigidity of that can feel kind of tricky.

 but I don’t know. I mean, something that’s coming up with, boundaries, my mom and I, which has been an interesting thing to navigate for both of us. So we talked about that. My dad died, it’s been, uh, going on 20 years ago now. And so both of us have dated a lot in the last 15 plus years, and that’s been an interesting thing to navigate.

The boundaries around, at least for me, what’s felt comfortable is to not really share until it’s somebody. Who I’m really excited about. Mm, mm-hmm. Uh, because I don’t, ’cause then she get, you know, we both were excitable [00:23:00] people and so then I don’t want her to like get so excited about somebody and then, you know, two weeks later it’s like, oh, how’s so and so doing and that.

So yeah, that’s definitely been something and I think a little bit differently. Like, I don’t think, I think that’s interesting actually as a, a kind of case study of sorts of like. I, I think my mom has shared more with me of going on more earlier dates, and I do get frustrated on her behalf. ’cause I think she’s incredible when then, , then that a very promising first date doesn’t end up, continuing.

Yeah. But yeah, I, yeah, mom, I’d be curious of your thoughts on that. Or is there something else from a boundary perspective that came up for you? Yeah, the first thing that came up to me is that Tess is in a relationship now, and so we were on a Zoom call, but she was at her boyfriend’s house and.

I was very aware [00:24:00] of we were on the call for a while and then, I saw him in the background and I thought, okay, he is bringing lunch to her, which is really super sweet. And she said, mom, I can go into another room to finish this conversation. I said, no, honey, it’s okay.

And I just thought, I look at the boundaries as like just being aware. Like taking a beat. Taking a beat to be aware of, for me as a mom, how much to ask, and being aware of, what Tes is comfortable sharing with me. I mean, I’ve had, as she said, she’s had more relationships.

I’ve had more first dates and so that, that don’t, you know, it’s a whole other story. Oh, it is. I hear you. It’s whole other story, and she’s and Tess is just. Ultimate, just so supportive, really supportive. And I, and I know that both my children, I have a son also, my, but both my children, they would wish for me to find someone that, that where there’s real love and, and [00:25:00] feeling seen and heard, and all of that.

But no, I think it just more, I think when it comes to boundaries, I think it’s about awareness. And so when Tess is saying how she may not necessarily share something, you know about seeing someone, although as her mom I will say, I tend to know, are you a creeper? No, no, no. It’s just like, if I don’t hear from her, I’m thinking, uh oh.

Yeah, there it is. She goes, alright, mom, just wanted to share with you. And it’s, but it’s okay. You know, it’s, I mean, what do I wish for her? I wish for her to find the love of her life, you know? And so it’s really okay. But I think what this all speaks to, is this conscious awareness of where you are and.

Not feeling like you need to know every detail for sure. And that’s okay. It’s okay not to know everything. Right, huh? And that things can shift [00:26:00] and evolve my mom does not remember this, but I do remember it was, so I had, you know, I used to live in New York City, so we used to be like a 40 minute subway ride away from each other.

And then I moved out to Colorado, right before COVID hit and. And I remember at one point we wanted to do a, like, how do we stay more connected and had this idea, I can’t remember who had the idea to do like a weekly check-in call, but then at some point I just remember it feeling like. To kind of like check the bot, like, oh, we did this thing and we did and we ta and like, I, I mean this is, this has candidly been kind of a source of tension for our relationship is I’m kind of more in the like, how can we be more organic and let things flow and not have it be so like, and my mom will have like, here’s our list of things to talk about in this conversation and to.

Do you want to be with me or do you want to like get through [00:27:00] your Yeah. Things and I thought you told me I was doing better Tess You’re, you’re for sure. But that’s the difference between personalities and between how you all. Operate right in your day to day and same thing. Yeah. My daughter and I are complete opposites and so like re like I’m not lying.

Okay. This child needs to be doing something every second of every day unless she is sleeping with her head on her pillow. And I need my rest. I need to have a book in my hand. I need to be able to chill out for a second. So like recognizing. Each person’s personality. So we just went on a vacation for 10 days, me and my three children, and they need to be doing something, especially [00:28:00] her, or it’s gonna be hell on earth if I don’t have something planned.

And so. I had something planned every minute, almost of every day, and she was so happy and I came home and I was exhausted, right? But I also have a bazillion memories because of her strengths and her, you know, need to experience something every minute. So I appreciate that in her and it’s just really, really being able to recognize that we’re different.

We’re very different people. You know what Tiffany, that sparks the memory of, um, when Tess and I, there’s a while back though, we’re on vacation and I’m someone, I wake up really early and I have energy. That’s my, you know, so I wake up and then she might sleep a little bit later, and then she, she wakes up and I’m like ready to start having a conversation.

And then I realize that, I mean, again, it’s about this conscious awareness. I [00:29:00] am so aware now when I’m with her, if I’m visiting her or she, when she’s comes to New York and she’s staying with me. Very aware of not necessarily jumping into a conversation. And I’ll even say, just let me know when you wanna talk, you know?

Mm-hmm. So what you did for your daughter, it was with that awareness of what she needs. And I think that is also really part of, having a mother-daughter relationship where you’re both. Being open and and sharing, like it’s not always so easy to do that, you know, but then to share what is it that you need so that it is more comfortable for each person.

’cause you are different people. Mm-hmm. So that leads perfectly into my next question is asking for what we need can be scary sometimes. So what’s helped you both say. Those hard things sometimes of what you [00:30:00] need, but with love and a little bit of tenderness.

I do really appreciate the, I don’t know if you’re familiar with, nonviolent communication. I’m looking over at my books. It’s, Marshall Rosenberg mm-hmm. Has this framework of saying like. When you do this, it makes me feel this, but then I think the, you know, which is like, yes, we all know that. Mm-hmm.

And, but then the really powerful thing is. And this is what I am asking for. Like, this is my need and this is what I’m asking for. And so even for me, I mean, this has been something that I’ve gotten, I, I wasn’t as good about saying I just need some quiet time. Like we used to when they lived in New York, most of our family lives in Connecticut, so we were going back, you know, many, many times a year.

And I think at different times I just. Needed a little more quiet. And I wasn’t good admittedly at asking for that, but I think that could have been, and I think I’m better at it [00:31:00] now of hey, just need a little bit of quiet time and know that it isn’t, it’s not a judgment call, right? It’s like how do we just center when you’re saying this is what I, yeah, this is what I want or need.

Like you can’t. Argue with it, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. That is what it is. Mm-hmm. And so then, and then you just have a better understanding and to harken back to the example that my mom gave earlier about the, the car and the walking stuff. And again, in my mind I’m like, oh, like now I know.

Now I have a better sense of how that made her feel. Because we went a little bit, be more below the surface, then like I don’t want to make her feel that way, so then my actions will shift and have shifted because of it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, oh, sorry. Go ahead Holly. I was just gonna say this, this expression that we use often that we heard about, [00:32:00] which is clear, is kind.

So the clearer you are with someone, the kinder, it is. ’cause at the end of the day, it is about being clear about what you need, clear about what you’re asking for, and then again, when this is when we also talk about heart to heart. This is not from mothers that are having a really difficult relationship with each other, the women that we’ve attracted more, or people that have a good relationship.

Wanna make it, better, but that there’s always things to talk about. So in terms of what helps me when I’m having these conversations and exactly what Tess is talking about with the I statements, really important. But I’m also someone that tends to script, you know, write something out.

So sometimes for me, writing something, helps me to think it through. And then, when it comes time. But it is like taking a deep breath, before you ask, because again, it’s hard sometimes, you don’t wanna [00:33:00] be needy. For me, even with that, I didn’t wanna be needy and I didn’t wanna be looking like, oh that’s mom, really?

But then the reality was it was real for me. So, and we feel what we feel. So I think, the way that we ask and the time that we ask I think is also important. So that’s why with Heart to Heart, we’re giving mothers and daughters that time to talk. And um, and then the idea of committing one thing different that actually came from someone I worked with a long time ago, in a career counseling consulting firm.

And when working with a client who was in job search and something wasn’t working, and then he had said, just ask them to do one thing different. And it doesn’t have to be some major thing, but for one mother and daughter and she has children, but they said that they realized. Whenever they talk, they always talk about the kids and it’s not really about us them.

Mm-hmm. And then they made the commitment to like once a quarter. [00:34:00] Either to get together or at least on the phone talk when they can just say like, how are you doing? What’s going on? You know? And just be making it that much more meaningful. I love that. So one of the pillars of my podcast, and it’s on the back of my wall, use your voice and I was telling Holly and Tess.

That it was my own mom that helped me with that wall and painting some of those tiles. Every time I see it on one of these interviews, I think of my mom. How has finding your voice changed the way that you show up for each other?

 yeah, I mean, I think, and also with finding your voice. It’s in every relationship. Like how do we find our voice that we feel good about ourselves, that we feel worthy, and I think maybe that’s part of it too, feeling worthy of asking. So how it’s changed for Tess and I, for sure.

[00:35:00] Number one. We do speak up. If something is happening, I would think Tess would say this too, but that we’re just more comfortable, stating what that is. But just generally speaking, we are just much more open with, um, sharing what’s going on.

And also just sometimes, maybe something that we would not have shared before, but they’re like, no, it’s. It’s okay, you know, that, that we’re gonna be seen, we’re going to be heard, and we know we love each other and we know we want the best for each other, but that, knowledge that this is important to both of us to be open with each other.

Mm-hmm. That is really. It’s really lovely. You know, I used to say to her back before we did this, sometimes I would say it to her, honey, I can’t read your mind. Like I’m not a mind reader. And so that now that would never come up Now. Because Tess would be sharing with me. Mm-hmm. So another one of my pillars is find your [00:36:00] tribe.

And that, I believe that our first tribe is our family and that is where we. Really start to become comfortable being around people and being around community and being, and just experiencing other personalities. I love that your heart to heart gatherings is a tribe as well. How has this mother-daughter relationship taught you to build tribes elsewhere as well, outside of your heart to heart gatherings.

Hmm. I, yeah, I love thinking about heart to heart as a, as a kind of tribe of sorts. And I think there’s something, there’s so much power in sharing different things about the relational dynamics that then. You just feel less alone, right? Mm-hmm. You are using your voice and saying what is true and, and then realizing, [00:37:00] oh my goodness, there’s all these other people that are experiencing very similar things, and I mean, I think for, for both as far as extending beyond heart to heart.

For both my mom and I, friendship. I think it was one of the most beautiful things that my parents modeled for me was deep, long-term, friendship. And that is very much I think about for both of us, like different, different spaces. Like I have my Peace Corps tribe and. New York, uh, grad school friends, and then here in Denver, like this mindfulness group that I’ve been a part of.

And, and I think there’s something about, like this then gets woven into that. Mm-hmm. Right. So then different people, then I get to share about heart to heart and it’s, you know, it is our, it is our deepest. Wish that by [00:38:00] sharing our story and by sharing our messages, that, that people take that scary step.

Like they take that vulnerable step to use their voice, and again, whether it be with their mom or daughter or, or someone else, but, I think there’s, there’s power in

knowing that you’re not the only one doing this. Mm-hmm. Scary thing. Mm-hmm. And that it gets easier over time. Right. Like it feels scary but then once it’s almost like a little muscle, or it’s like a, you know, I live in Colorado, it’s like you’re, there’s a, you’re like forging a new path, a new way of being, and that can be really hard and.

Can and then takes time to make that groove, and can be really powerful to then have it. I know I have brought this up on my podcast many, many times, but I’m gonna bring it up again because it’s so true, is I was an extreme introvert, like where you [00:39:00] couldn’t get a word out of me at all. The idea of being in a room or a community or like in a tribe?

No, no, no, no, no. Not cool. Unless it was like a sports team. I was okay with my, my team, but anywhere outside of that, terrified me. The first time I went on a Zoom call with somebody, or like with a group. A camera off. Nope. Can’t do this. And so turning my camera on was a big deal, turning my mic on.

I honestly thought I was gonna die of a heart attack. And so that was, wow. Six years ago. Wow. So when you say it gets easier. It really, I am proof of that. Like, no, I would not have opened my mouth on a Zoom call with two people, let alone hundreds. Right? And so it’s a [00:40:00] muscle and it’s a practice and it’s intentional and it’s just choosing to show up and choosing for people to see you.

Turn off the camera and it’s also a bit brave. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It’s brave thing to do, to let others see you, and to see in. So that’s not, so, not an easy, it’s not an easy thing. It isn’t. It isn’t, but it’s also helped the healing. Like I could, I know for a fact I would not be where I am without that choice of leaning in to a community and to sharing and being vulnerable.

I would not have the healing that I have right now because with every story that I’ve shared, or with every person that I’ve talked to, it’s literally like, help put me back together. Hmm. It’s really lovely. Yeah. [00:41:00] Mm-hmm. It’s so important. I’m curious if it was a particular not to, to, to change the, uh, the questioner questionnaire becomes the Oh, I love being asked questions.

Yeah. I’m so curious of if it was like one specific group that was a part that played a really pivotal role in the. No, it was a combination of many groups. The first, the first place that I put myself in, and I remember saying it to my ex-husband now. We were sitting having coffee and I said, I need to put myself in the PTA meeting.

I need to put myself in somewhere that is so uncomfortable. That it stretches me just a little bit, just a little bit. And so I went to that first meeting and I was shaking, like I, like, there was a whole bunch of parents there, but I was terrified of [00:42:00] somebody asking me a question and I’d be like, I don’t know.

I have, you know, like not having an answer or, or they would want my opinion on something. That was crazy to even have that thought. But then I ended up being the secretary, no, sorry, not the secretary, the treasurer of the PTAA year later. Wow, because I’m a CPA. And so I was like, well, if you don’t ask me many questions, I will do the books for you.

And then that led to me actually sharing stuff about the finances. And so it was little little steps at a time that build up to this. And then now I’m talking with people all over the world, so it’s proof that you can do this, but it’s a choice. You have to make that choice. Yeah.

I’ve always said that half of life is just showing up. You know, like you showed up. Mm-hmm. And I always say, people are not gonna come knocking on your front [00:43:00] door. Mm-hmm. So doing anything new and different it requires reaching out. So Good for you. That is really, it’s, it’s again, very brave to have done it the first time when you were feeling the way you were feeling.

And then here you are. And I think that that’s the same with your mother daughters, right? Is just making that choice to get in those calls with you guys. Like it’s, it’s sometimes it’s even just that choice of, do I want to explore this more with my daughter or with my mom? And if that answer is yes, then make that choice and get in that room, get in that zoom call, get in that space with you to explore that a little bit deeper.

Yes. Mm-hmm. So if there were more moms and daughters that were starting to have these kind of conversations, what do you both think [00:44:00] that our world and our communities would look like if we were doing this more?

 I am just thinking of what the ripple effect would be. Yes. Of it. Right. Of like, okay, so you do you get to experience this in this in a mother daughter context and then, and then how does it kind of then ripple out from there? And I just imagine a more open-hearted world in which. People are seen and heard and witnessed and celebrated, and yeah, feels really powerful.

Mm-hmm. And also more comfortable with each other. And again, Tess and I were focusing on mother daughters, but as we said, this could be any two people. [00:45:00] And related to work too, you know, you’re working in a, a group of people and there’s typically something going on that you would wish to talk about.

Then you might hesitate to say something and then just imagine what would happen again depending on how you share it. And when you share it that, it really, that’s again, as Tess said like the ripple effect of just making everyone more open with each other, more authentic for who they are and yeah, living a life that is more comfortable too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All right, so tell me more. I need to know where these lovely people can find you, how they can work with you and all of the things. Where can they go? Yeah, so they can go, we have a website, it is currently part of my, like my business website, so it’s, gather better.co and we can, we’ll send you the link so [00:46:00] that you can include it in the show notes and also the couple of, books that I shared.

Happy to share those as well. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so it’s, yeah, gather better.co. Slash heart to heart gatherings. Mm-hmm. Um, and then there you can sign up. We have a little, and we can put this also in there, a link for our, for our upcoming circles. So yeah, we have kinda a wait list of, of folks that then when we get a new date on the calendar, then we put it out there.

And so, yeah, we would be so thrilled for listeners who feel, uh, that this work feels resonant, that we would be so excited for them to join. Okay. Question. Is there age limits? ’cause I have somebody in mind, and it might be me and my daughter. That’s a very interesting question that we actually, so to date, it’s mostly been folks from our community.

So then it’s been moms, like daughters in their like twenties and thirties. And then, so I think we’ve said adults. [00:47:00] Adult daughters. So I, okay, so just wait a little bit till she’s, uh, graduated. Yeah. Maybe me. Okay. Well, I want her to be comfortable in that room too. Right? So not to throw her in with older people that she doesn’t really relate to.

Right. Yeah. It’s an interesting, and we’ve been doing this now for a couple years, but we, this is like, it’s making me think of, we’ve talked about this before, of kind of, uh. A teenage version. Yeah, exactly. Different like spec, like, um, I’m blanking on what the word would be, but like, kind of like different things for different, for different specific things.

So yeah, maybe it’s a teen version and then in your twenties or college or. The daughter’s married, the, the mom is single. Like all these different things. Oh, there’s so many avenues. Yeah, so many. But I like, I like that idea though, because again, I would wish for your daughter though to be surrounded and to see people on the [00:48:00] screen that are probably closer to her age that would probably be more comfortable and.

I think that is absolutely possible. And I’ve had other friends that have said, you know, when my daughter gets a little bit older, maybe, so mm-hmm. That, that’s kind of interesting. And again, it’s a different, it is a different, um, so your daughter is in, what, 11th grade now? 12. She just started grade 12 today, so she’s going off of college next year.

Mm-hmm. And so that’s also another, another transition. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, that’s, you’re giving us good food for thought. Just I think the transitions piece, that is a big thing that we talk about a lot is what, yeah, how do we show up for each other as we navigate different transitions. And I think it’s a really meaty, and then if you, people are going through similar-ish transitions, right?

Then that’s the opportunity also to feel more connective and less alone with other, right? Mm-hmm. When you’re talking to other people, even like a sendoff transition, kind of [00:49:00] meeting or container, of just, okay, this is, you are flying now and here’s what I wish for you. Like those kind of conversations and those kind of moments with other moms.

Oh my Lord, she’s leaving the nest. And I know that those groups are out there and all of that, but I haven’t heard of like a mother daughter leave the nest situation, yeah. And that’s where the boundaries come in and mm-hmm the burdens come in setting all of that up, right, right from the beginning.

So, woo, lots of good stuff to think about. So I end every interview asking my guests what they are grateful for, and I would love to hear what each of you are grateful for today. Hmm. I’m just feeling I’m grateful that you said yes, TIFF. I’m grateful that you invited us to come and share, um, our stories and to share your [00:50:00] stories and that it might resonate with, with your listeners, with people that, other people that might listen and just grateful to be able to be, in a relationship with my daughter that is deeper than it’s ever been, and that means a lot.

Yeah. I also feel very grateful and appreciative for, for having the opportunity and grateful to my mom for this is, it is just, it’s such a gift. It is such a gift to, to get to do this work together, and I’m feeling grateful in advance. For your listeners that after listening to this episode, take a daring act.

Like reach out to their mom, reach out to their daughter, reach out to a sibling, reach out to their dad. Mm-hmm. Uh, reach out to a friend and, and have the hard conversation. I, I see you and [00:51:00] I, and I applaud you, and I hope that it, that it brings real meaning and depth on the other side of that, and that again, like continuing to build that track.

Mm-hmm. I love this. Just say one more thing. When we talk about doing one thing different, we really mean that. It doesn’t mean you have to change your whole life. It’s like, what one thing can you do that would be meaningful. Mm-hmm. So just to think about that. It could be some one thing thing.

Yeah. It could be some small thing, it could be some bigger thing, but what’s one thing? Mm-hmm. Thank you for sharing that, that reminder.

This chat has me thinking back to my teenage self, that one that was calling the cops on my mom.

And her just shaking her head, wondering what the heck I was doing. But it also makes me so grateful that my mom and I found our way back to each other. And that’s what I love about Tess [00:52:00] and Holly and what they are doing. They remind us that even the messiest relationships can grow into something so strong and life giving.

So I want you to think about this. Where in your life could a heart to heart shift things for you? And where could a little honesty and courage open the door to even more love? And if you want more support for your own healing journey, don’t forget to reach out to Tess and Holly. They are doing so much good work.

And I know that they will be able to help you in your relationships. Tess and Holly, thank you so, so, so much for this conversation. I am beyond grateful and to you listening, go have that heart to heart. Just try doing one small thing different and you might just be surprised how it changes [00:53:00] everything.

Thanks for being here for this episode of Hard, beautiful Journey. I hope today’s episode inspired you to embrace your own vulnerabilities and recognize the strength within you. Remember, every story of resilience adds to the beauty of our shared journey. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, subscribe, and leave a review your support.

Helps me spread hope and healing to even more listeners. Until next time, keep shining your light and embracing the beauty in your journey. Bye-bye.